tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4421420703803149726.post8161690707391625841..comments2024-03-13T19:43:37.378-07:00Comments on From Bitter Waters to Sweet: Question From RachelMara Reidhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16385458933795539928noreply@blogger.comBlogger5125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4421420703803149726.post-46090702469098185572012-03-12T14:40:15.702-07:002012-03-12T14:40:15.702-07:00Mara, I couldn't fit my whole response here, s...Mara, I couldn't fit my whole response here, so I wrote it up as a blog post: http://undermuchgrace.blogspot.com/2012/03/virtues-of-suffering-in-spiritually.html<br /><br />In short, it can be explained in different ways, and I look at it as a pattern of spiritual abuse.<br /><br />In short it can be attributed to:<br />1. Neoplatonism in Christianity<br />2. Image consciousness (a feature of spiritual abuse)<br />3. Producerism (a feature of Right Wing Populism in the US)<br />4. Gothard's teaching about meriting grace through acts of suffering and submissionCynthia Kunsmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08060294887790881860noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4421420703803149726.post-59474917689817345852012-03-12T11:52:41.964-07:002012-03-12T11:52:41.964-07:00Thanks Paul,
I'm at work where I cannot make n...Thanks Paul,<br />I'm at work where I cannot make new posts.<br />But the Lord willing, I'll post the link you give above in a new post.<br />Those who don't want to wait until then, just cut and paste the link into your browser.<br /><br />Also, thanks to Lynne and Brad for your responses.<br />I like hearing things from different angles.Mara Reidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16385458933795539928noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4421420703803149726.post-54349143745420255492012-03-12T11:47:06.392-07:002012-03-12T11:47:06.392-07:00I respond to Rachel's question here:
http://w...I respond to Rachel's question here: <br />http://wp.me/pmd7S-1nVPaulhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04610383351649422416noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4421420703803149726.post-73578690697096059562012-03-12T08:42:11.064-07:002012-03-12T08:42:11.064-07:00What comes to mind is a recent conversation we had...What comes to mind is a recent conversation we had in our men's Bible study group, which is going through *A Praying Life* by Paul Miller. A similar question came up about people who "promote" suffering as reeeeally good for us, but it's in a weird, perverse way like some of what Rachel's hearing in her church. <br /><br />Anyway, I wondered aloud about whether this attitude was all that different in essence from a sort of fundamentalist Islamic view: a rather fatalistic “If God wills” sort of a thing. It’s hard to find joy in this, which is an indicator that the fruit of the Spirit is absent. It also messes up “theodicy” (that God justifies that He is not the author of evil, despite using it redemptively).<br /><br />I also wonder if there is an overemphasis in this approach on our depravity. Kind of like, “We really do deserve this, because we’re terrible horrible very-bad no-good sinners. So just man up and take it - - it’s good for you!” It’s cold and clinical because it leaves off the part of the paradox that notes we are created in God’s image and therefore there is SOME good in being human. My saying on this overly either/or thinking is, “In ministry as in medicine, to dissect it is to kill it,” and this dividing of reflect-God’s-image humanity from the total-to-the-core depravity and tossing aside the first half leaves nothing but negative second half. <br /><br />People who are “decreeing quite confidently that trying to escape suffering is not what we want” may think this neo-Calvinist/neo-Puritan approach is redemptive, but it is not. But then, so much of what passes as truth has elements of error in it, and in the long run we’ll see the consequences thereof. <br /><br />Maybe this perspective is really a turned-inside-out perversion of “Shall we sin so grace may abound? [No!]” Namely, “Shall we suffer so grace may abound?” Oh, yeah! (At least, that seems to be what they say.) It’s dehumanizing … which goes back to the idea that this supposedly 100% truth theology is missing half the paradox about what it is to be human, and it’s ending up inhumane.brad/futuristguyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15744226426932166097noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4421420703803149726.post-36355949700200575692012-03-11T22:06:25.271-07:002012-03-11T22:06:25.271-07:00Hmm .. I can only speak from my own experience, bu...Hmm .. I can only speak from my own experience, but I suspect it's a reflection of something innate to Calvinism. I don't recall anyone specifically preaching on the glories of suffering, it was more an implication than a directive, a subtle flavour that permeated everything, like the unspoken rules in a family dynamic, which can be so hard to put your finger on and articulate, but if you live within that dynamic you're shaped by it all the time.<br /><br />Think about it: there is a huge suspicion of anything that could be labelled 'man-centred', we exist to glorify God and, apparently, He is equally glorified whether we are saved or damned, God's centre stage attibute is His sovereignty, to which we must all submit -- but somehow women have to submit more than men, because, to quote Animal Farm, 'all animals are equal, but some are more equal than others.<br />When you look at those ingredients, it takes very little to push it over into the glorification of suffering. I HAVE heard it said that objecting to your situation is being like the Israelites who grumbled in the wilderness, and we know how God punished them!<br /><br />I guess, thinking this through, my take away impression was not so much that suffering was glorious as that it was necessary, and trying to avoid it was almost always sinfulLynnehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10982043538182690871noreply@blogger.com