Men Who Hate Women Should Not Teach the Bible

Maybe a better title should be, "Men Who Don't Understand the Love of God for both Men and Women have absolutely no business, whatsoever, teaching the Bible."

There are many such men. Mark Driscoll, formally an easy and frequent target of this blog is one. John McArthur, the man who puts women under church discipline for leaving abusive husbands is another. Then there is the new up and comer Josh Howerton who is very disrespectful of women.

The list is very long of men like these. And their raging, self-righteous followers are all over Twitter/X using the Bible as a club against women.

But today, I'm wanting to shine the light on an upcoming podcast series that takes on Doug Wilson, one of the most hateful men I've ever heard who claims to be Christian. Yes. He is even worse than Driscoll, McArthur, and Howerton. And according to WenatcheetheHatchet, Driscoll had early dealings with Wilson.

The Podcast will be starting on Monday, October 28th, and it is called Sons of Patriarchy. Here is a link to the trailer.

I am looking forward to listening and hope that it takes down that mobster pretending to be a pastor up in Moscow, Idaho.

Driscoll, MacArthur, and the Jezebel Spirit

 So, back in the day, when my mind was being blown away by the fact that Mark Driscoll was Raping and Pornifying The Song of Solomon (hither to referred to as The Songs), I was looking for someone, anyone with any kind of platform to confront these crimes against Scripture.

And I did find a guy. I linked to him and his series and thanked him on this blog for confronting Driscoll. He was John MacArthur.

However, little did I  know how much MacArthur is NOT a friend to women. I knew he was Complementarian. And really, I thought that would make others take his rebuke of Driscoll more seriously.

But John MacArthur Shamed and Excommunicated a Mother for Refusing to Take Back Her Child Abuser Husband. AND shortly after this came to light A Prominent Elder Resigned from MacArthur's Church claiming that the church was failing to protect women from abusive husbands.

Even though I was disheartened by the knowledge of how awful MacArthur is to women, I left up my posts about him confronting Driscoll. My reasoning was this: I was on a journey. I learned awful things about the Evangelical movement and Neo Calvinists. And my blog is as good a record of that journey as anything else. I am imperfect, am not omniscient. and I'm bound to make mistakes. And I did in that area out of ignorance.

So, anyway, fast forward to the last few weeks. As I watched the crazy words and behaviors of Mark Driscoll and John Lindell and what a lot of people were saying about it, I was reminded of my frustration with praising MacArthur for protecting women from Driscoll when people need to protect women from MacArthur just as much.

I read one guy's tweet that said something along the lines of, "If we need Driscoll to call out sin in our conferences, we have fallen so very low."

Now, note. I don't know that Driscoll was in the right to call out the sword swallowing act. I do know that him associating it with anything Jezebel was way out of line. And I do know that he is in no way qualified to make such judgement calls.

Please see Wenatchee's Mark Driscoll is in a strange position to opine against church leaders and cultures influenced by the Jezebel spirit when he mentioned clear heels 17 times in 13 sermons preached between January 2004 and February 2008. 

Near the bottom of this blog post Wenatchee quotes from a CBMW post (a firmly complementarian site) concerning Driscoll's Real Marriage book:

"Another problem with the way the Driscolls treat pornography has to do with the reality that many people will be guided to pornography because of their book.  Make no mistake: men and women will be introduced to pornography because of this book.  For almost my entire ministry I have been talking to at least one person a week who struggles with pornography.  I do not live in some sheltered ministry context away from people with perverse struggles.  As true as that is the Driscolls taught me a lot about pornography I wish I never knew."

With this blog post, I feel Wenatchee firmly proves that Driscoll is not qualified to define or call out sexual sin.

How Dare Mark Driscoll

 How dare him for thinking that he is a pastor and teacher

How dare him for using women as props to justify his bad sermons.

How dare him for pornifying the Song of Solomon.

I have two links concerning Driscoll's defense of his "How Dare You" sermons.

One if from Underdog Theology where Dean addresses Mark's defense called "Mark Driscoll Gives 'Reason' He Screamed 'How Dare You!'" Dean doesn't start talking about Driscoll until about 15 minutes in.

The second link is from Wenatchee The Hatchet pointing out several other things, including that this sermon was no where near the level of controversial that Driscoll has displayed in the past:

Mark Driscoll revisits what he says was his most controversial moment in his public career.

Wenatchee makes some good points and brings up history about Mark that we should not forget including his infamous Scotland sermon and other pornifications of The Songs. And his time blogging as William Wallace the second.

How dare you, Mark Driscoll. While you claim to be a defender of women, in reality, you use them just as badly as any other unregenerate man. You are just better at manipulate and gaslighting than your average joe.

Edited 3/23/24 to add:

Mark Driscoll Tries to Justify "How Dare You!" Sermon

Another good one with lots of evidence like Wenatchee's post.

Edited 4/1/24 to add this link because of comments below:

Driscoll's Narcissism on full display

"Mark Driscoll is a brawler" at the 1:55 mark. And also mentions that he got physical with people, choking them, etc. in church during baptisms during Mars Hill days.

No Quarter November Numbskull

 Stupid title. I know. But I'll get to the reason for it later.

The main reason for this post is to link a secular article about Wilson's No Quarter November Fiasco.

That Moscow Mood: How much culture war is too much, for American Evangelicals?

Linking the above because I found that it summarized the crazy events on Twitter/X that dogged Wilson's No Quarter November antics this year.

WenatcheTheHatchet was the first to draw my attention to the fact that Driscoll was influenced by Doug Wilson early on. And I can really see that. If I knew where to find that post, I'd link it. May go back and do this eventually.

Anyway, why did I use the term "Numbskull" to describe Wilson? Because it starts with an "N" like No and November. Numbskull means stupid or foolish person. Wilson is not stupid. He is very intelligent. However, Wilson is not wise. He is quite foolish, and not in a good way. He is foolish in his words and thoughts and in the way he causes "The Little Ones to Stumble". He is foolish because he is oblivious to the millstone that he has been attaching to his own neck over that last few decades of his life.

It is true that I am angry with him for his abuses and for covering up the abuses of other privileged white men. But more than that, I pity him for his foolishness and misunderstanding of the heart of God for His children.

A Pornified Brain Assaulting The Songs, Again.

 I finished Biblical Porn the other day. It's been out since 2018 but I felt no need to read it because ol' pornified brain Driscoll has been reduced to a lying little disgraced 'pastor'* in a suburb of Phoenix.

(*pastor? really? ah, no, not really. pastors care for the flock. driscoll just uses people and throws them away when they are no longer useful to him.)

But things have changed because Driscoll is at it again, assaulting a beautiful Book of Poetry in the Bible, manipulating and twisting it beyond breaking point. Then taking the twisted and broken version of that Book and using it to create a porn and rape culture in his present church. Because of this I felt the need to read the above linked book that Wenatchee the Hatchet considers to be the best book dealing with the train wreak of Driscoll at Mars Hill in Seattle.

Driscoll first unleashed his his porn heavy interpretation of the Song of Songs back in 2007 or 2008 in the form of his "Peasant Princess" series. He also gave a sermon in Scotland called "Sex, a study of the good bits from the Song of Solomon" that he has since tried to scrub because it was so wrong, un-Christian and repulsive. Listen at your own risk.

Well, a month ago, he has recycled his porn song into a book he calls "Real Romance". Unfortunately, Driscoll believes that his perception of the world, life, sex, and marriage is the only "Real" perception. All other perceptions that don't line up, lockstep, with his are, I don't know, fake? lacking? Not Driscoll centric?

Well, I waited for a while for people to do reviews on the book since I certainly don't want to read it. I'm still getting over watching the first part of just one of his Peasant Princess videos. Now, every time I read that portion of the Songs, I remember that unfortunate and video series and how it has so muddied the waters for so many people.

I know many of the people harmed by Driscoll in Seattle have no desire to review "Real Romance" and I totally get it. If I regret watching one part of one Peasant Princess video, I can only imagine what people who were immersed in his Peasant Princess/Real Marriage crap feel about ever looking at it.

Well, anyway, because of all the above, I decided to link a guest series written by Wenatchee the Hatchet concerning his view on how Driscoll mishandled The Songs back in 2011. I'm doing this as a public service for anyone who has been assaulted by Driscoll's porn meditations through his newest book and would like to see a thoughtful response from someone who had been a member of his church back in Seattle.

Introducing Wenatchee the Hatchet (WTH)

WTH on Driscoll's SoS Intro and Part 1

WTH on Driscoll's SoS Parts 2 and 3

WTH on Driscoll's SoS Part 4a

WTH on Driscoll's SoS Part 4b

Hopefully, someday, Driscoll will stop troubling the Church with his warped ideas on men, women, and sex. But I'm not holding my breath.

Mark Driscoll & Biblical Porn

 I'm reading a book highly recommended to me by my internet friend WenatcheeTheHatchet.

It is called Biblical Porn: Affect, Labor, and Pastor Mark Driscoll's Evangelical Empire

I am about halfway through. I knew things were bad and that Driscoll was doing terrible things to people up in Seattle while he dominated his church. But I didn't know how bad.

Wenatchee has a review of the Biblical Porn book that he did back in 2018 that he says is nsfw:

Prelude and Review of Jessica Johnson's Biblical Porn

NSFW? He ain't kidding.

Why am I reading this now and why am I bringing it up now? Well, I mentioned before that Driscoll has recycled his old Peasant Princess series on the Song of Solomon and written a book called "Real Romance" that he had published last month on Valentine's Day.

So far, there are still no reviews for it on Amazon, which I find surprising. Surely someone somewhere has read the book and has an opinion. I've put a few feelers out to see if anyone has said anything. But so far nothing.

I guess the bottom line for me, the reason this bothers me, is because he's still out their throwing pig feces on the Best of Songs in the Bible, making it all about how he can coerce his wife and all Christian women into becoming strippers, porn stars, prostitutes for their husbands and saying that God agrees with him. He uses God's Word to promote a rape culture and tries to make people believe that God approves of his abusive teachings.

I might not care if I hadn't spent an entire decade before I ever heard of Mark Driscoll, meditating on the healing aspects of The Songs. Within this Best of All Songs there is healing for those of us who have been abused and coerced by narcissistic husbands.

But this Narcissist from Seattle who has moved to Phoenix has used it to abuse his wife and all Christian women within ear shot. This bully of a man who thinks he speaks for God has used it to pimp out Christian women in order to build his own kingdom on sand. Please see Kyle Howard's YouTube video on the topic.

Well, I guess I'll continue to read this book suggested by my internet friend Wenatchee. He would know a lot concerning Driscoll since he used to go to his church. He was actually able to supply the author of the book I linked above with more damning evidence against Driscoll. And he was able to watch, in person, as Driscoll committed a hostile take over of Mars Hill then swerve the poor, unsuspecting congregation into terrible error, making it a hotbed of rape culture and other abuses.

Mark Driscoll Is So Disqualified

 He is disqualified on so many levels as a pastor, teacher, and preacher.

Yet people still support him and give him a platform. I  personally know people who think that Driscoll has repented because he is so good at spinning, spinning, spinning, and making a 'reality' that he likes rather than to deal with actual reality, with what really happened.

I have a tendency to focus on his terrible misuse of the Bible and especially The Songs as tools to further his fleshly agenda. He is busy at work building his personal earthly kingdom. Unfortunately his new fiefdom has little to do with God's Kingdom. I'm planning on reposting some things concerning this in the future, including a guest post by my blogging friend, Wenatchee the Hatchet on this particular topic. More on him later.

But for now it is good for me to remember that there is so much evidence in other areas that exposes Driscoll's woeful lack of character. There is much evidence on his failure to fulfill the requirements for the office of a pastor as lined out in the Pastoral Epistles.

There is a reason that I include Wenatchee The Hatchet in my reading concerning Driscoll. He actually attended Mars Hill in Seattle. Plus he has training in journalism so is good at research and delivery of facts. When he talks about Driscoll and the history of Mars Hill, I have never been sorry for it paying attention.

Recently, Wenatchee the Hatchet has brought up a great point that I want to link to. He has addressed an excerpt from a 2021 book, "Pray Like Jesus" written by Driscoll that completely reframes what happened back in Seattle. Wenatchee the Hatchet holds it up next to other evidence from that time including Driscoll's own words. It is a long read, but a good read for anyone who cares about actual reality vs Driscoll's self-serving spin.

an apparent account of Mark Driscoll's resignation from Mars Hill from the 2021 book Pray Like Jesus, juxtaposed with prior accounts and Sutton Turner's published notes from the 2014 investigation of Mark Driscoll

As an add on to this post, I'd like to direct your attention to a Julie Roys podcast: Escaping & Healing From Abusive Churches Part 2

Here she interviews a man who spent time in an abusive church in Oregon.

Part 1 is also good. But part 2 gets more into the difference between abusive leaders that are held up as 'good' pastors, teachers, or preachers verses a person with an actual pastor's heart.

Much of modern Christianity, and especially modern Evangelicalism, has lost its way. They want the shiny and charismatic men, the ones that entertain them and make them feel certain ways. They don't realize that these shiny men have shady characters and off-balanced teachings that often oppose the teachings of Jesus.

Borrowed Credentials (NPD)

 This title is taken from a quote from WanatcheeTheHatchet's latest commentary on The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill Podcast and drawing from his extensive knowledge of the history of Mars Hill.

The full sentence from Wanatchee's post goes like this:

"Driscoll has certainly fisked people out there for "borrowed faith" but the stories of all the men who have come and gone from Mark Driscoll's life of whom he at one point said "He's my pastor, you know" suggests that Driscoll has spent his entire ministry career running on the borrowed credentials of people who, at one point, believed in him. "

This sentence appears near the end of the post. But everything written before it soundly supports this statement.

I almost left a comment but decided against it as it would have been merely stating the obvious and was using a word that Wanatchee has been actively avoiding for good reason. The comment I was going to make was something along the lines of, Yes, this is typical Narcissistic Personality Disorder behavior.

I understand that there are many reasons why someone like Wenactchee would want to avoid mentioning the word "Narcissist". It is both a very charged word and a word that some people simple tune out for one reason or another. Also, when one uses the word one runs the risk of being accused of trying to armchair diagnose people.

So rather than use the word, Wanatchee simply lays things out with more than enough evidence. And I look at it and think, "Just another example of raging Narcissism that male church leaders have admired, given a pass, defended, given a platform."

SoS SGC Break

I will resume with the study guide critique on Monday.

But here is a good post from WTH concerning Driscoll's relationship with his wife, Grace. WTH pulls several things together to point out what most of us have already known. Putting it mildly, their relationship is not healthy.

Driscoll's policy on who can be friends with Grace?

Oh, Grace. If only you knew who you were in Christ. Then you would know when you were being abused and you wouldn't keep going along with your shyster husband's lame-brain plans.

Dear Grace, you really need to read my friend's open letter to you. You are so confused and clueless.

"Pussified Nation" Says Driscoll (WTH)

I'm just going to link to this series under its label on Wenatchee The Hatchet's blog.

Driscoll fears the feminine and its great and magnificent power to destroy men (snark or eye rolling icon here).

He is so worried about the power of women to destroy men and manhood that he went on and on and on about it about it on some Mars Hill forum.

If you go down about half a page or more you will get to Page 1 of Driscoll's ranting against girly men (as defined by him) and the women who made them that way. Page 2 is below that.

But here is the link:

Pussified Nation (WTH)

Dang, Driscoll. Go get some therapy. You need it, dude.

Accurately Handling Driscoll Info

I try to keep my facts straight.

There are a whole lot of them.

I also try to give Driscoll the benefit of a doubt in some fuzzy areas. I know it doesn't look like it. It looks like I'm out to get him. Well, okay, I kind of am because he's been out to get so many for so long he needs to stop his reign of control, manipulation, and in some cases terror over there at Mars Hill.

In all this, I still want the info concerning him to stay as accurate as possible. But I simply do not have the hours in the day to keep up.

Wenatchee the Hatchet has been doing a better job. Here he points out errors in a Salon article.
Overview of Factual Errors on a Salon Article.

Thanks WTH for keeping us up-to-date.

Christian Literary Agent on Driscoll

Chip MacGregor, experienced and respected literary agent, speaks out on the evils of buying your way onto the NYT bestsellers list.

What's wrong with buying your way onto the bestsellers list?

Edited to add...

I know, I keep pointing to WTH on the best, most uptodate and comprehensive understanding of all things Mark Driscoll/Mars Hill. But just in case people aren't taking me seriously in this light, here are are two recent MUST READs from his blog.

Remembrance of Things Past

And

Linked Titles Speak for Themselves.

Driscoll Needs to Step Down

Comp and not-Comp women agree.

First the Comp one:
The Line at the Mars Hill Communion Table

Then the not-Comp one:
Mark Driscoll and His Mars Hill "Advisory" Board: Time to step down

Also, don't neglect looking at Wenatchee The Hatchet's blog. He has the most thorough, objective, info on Mars Hill that is humanly possible. His is the place to go for those who want to know more.

"Sexocentric Marriage" by Mark Driscoll

Also known as "Real Marriage" by Mark and Grace Driscoll.

Because, you see, according to Driscoll, lots of sex makes a good marriage in the mind of a husband. Sex is the center of a good marriage, hence the use of my clumsy, made-up, mock Latin word "sexocentric". Because it is Sexocentric marriages that Mark promotes in his book.

He says on page 164 that: "For a wife, sex comes out of a healthy relationship, whereas, for a husband it leads to one."


What, you say? Did I actually read the book to find this quote? No, I absolutely did not. I left that for the experts Wenatchee the Hatchet (WTH) and Wendy and Andy Alsup who, as former members of Driscoll's church, have kept and eye on him.

The Alsups state in their review on Mark's Sexocentric Marriage book that if for some reason Grace would become incapable of providing Mark with all the sex he needed or wanted or be incapable of any sex at all, "If that became the case, the majority of their marriage book would be useless to them."

I say all this for a reason.

I want to direct your attention to WTH's article discussing this in a bit more detail with the added information concerning Pastor Bill Clem who resigned from Mars Hill in 2013 and who also preached to single men on how to be able to love their (future) wives in non-sexual ways.

Mark Driscoll on Bill Clem leaving in 2013, Clem on ovarian cancer treatment and the need for husbands to love wives in non-sexual ways

John MacArthur's Unfriendly Fire

Yup, it's a firestorm. Yup, it's getting pretty ugly.

Nope, I don't want to get too involved except to say a thing or two and leave a couple links.

First off, those who have been with me, like, forever, know that back in the day when Driscoll was ranting and raving and raping The Song of Songs mostly unchallenged, I appreciated MacArthur's voice in the wilderness, calling Driscoll on his misused and abuse of Scripture.

I still appreciate what he has done.

But now, John MacArthur is ranting and raving and shooting off his mouth and pen with his book and conference called Strange Fire attacking Charismatics.

And apparently Driscoll crashed MacArthur's party.

My biggest impulse is to back up and let the elephants trample each other while I figure out how to serve God to the best of my ability in my small corner of the world far and away from these mad men. And I think that is just what I'll do.

But first I'll link a few things here of those taking on MacArthur's unchristian, unfriendly fire.

Wenatchee the Hatchet has a lot to say about some of this stuff (this is just a link to his blog, not any one post because he has several today).

Wade Burleson does a wonderful job addressing this in his usual level headed manner.

And Wartburg Watch, as always, will keep us updated.

So, for those of you who care to pursue this, I've linked these to get you started.

Oh that God would deliver us from the curse of celebrity pastors.

(Edited November 22, 2013 to add a link from WTH concerning the Open Letter to Mark Driscoll I mentioned in the comments below.)

Plagiarism or Not... THIS!

Wenatchee the Hatchet left a comment under one of my previous Mars Hill plagiarism posts.

Since it had been a while since I put up those posts, people interested n the topic might miss his comment and I don't want them to.

Wenatchee the Hatchet:
What I find troublesome about Grace Driscoll's appropriation of Dan Allender's terms and concepts is not simply that she never gives him any credit, it's that during 2011 when the Driscoll book was in its run-up for promotional touring Mars Hill Graduate School changed its name to remove "Mars Hill". 2011 was also the same year that cease and desist letter got sent out. It cumulatively raises the question of whether or not Mars Hill leadership isn't a bit more cavalier about the intellectual property of other people than it wishes to be about its own content. I find the Mars Hill double standard about the sadness of others copying Mars Hill material while not acknowledging Grace Driscoll's clearly testified debt to the work of Dan Allender puzzling. All it would have taken was a single footnote or endnote, after all.


There doesn't just seem to be a double standard. There clearly is a double standard. If the Driscoll's want to freely borrow from others, then they shouldn't be so ugly towards others who appear to may have borrowed from them.

Results of Driscoll's Conquest

The Kingdom of Heaven suffers violence and violent men take it by force. (taken from Matthew 11:12)

I've wanted to use this phrase in reference to Mark Driscoll for a long time but have not had a real good opportunity.

Well, the perfect opportunity has come up.
Wenatchee the Hatchet has a piece about Driscoll and everyone he has run over and thrown away in his conquest of the Kingdom of Heaven.

some context for "a call for reconciliation", "there's a pile of dead bodies behind the Mars Hill bus"

May Mark Driscoll realize someday, hopefully sooner rather than later for his own sake, that those who live by the sword, die by the sword.

Introducing Wenatchee The Hatchet

My new Internet and blogging friend goes by Wenatchee The Hatchet, WTH.

I met WTH on the Wartburg Watch where he made some intriguing and thoughtful comments on Mark Driscoll's mishandling of the Song of Solomon, SOS. I asked for further clarification of some of the things he said, and I began to understand that he had a grasp on the situation that went beyond anything that I had encountered before and beyond my own understanding.

Because SOS is near and dear to my heart as a place for the wounded soul to go find healing, I feel the need to counter act Mark Driscoll's high jacking of SOS and turning it solely into a sort of Christian Kama Sutra, or sex manual, for married couples.

WTH's ability to get to the root and heart of the matter with clarity and limited bias made me realize that I wanted his thoughts preserved on this blog for others who care about the issue and for myself and others to refer to when dealing with the mishandling of SOS.

WTH is uniquely qualified to write about this for several reasons.

For one thing, he attended Mars Hill, Driscoll's church, for nine years (1999-2008). And during his time there he served in four different ministries, the longest being with the Theological Response Team, where he handled questions. He got the position with the response team because he was known there as a well-studied Christian.

During his time with the response team he noted that the questions changed over the years and so did the handling of the questions. One of the changes in questions concerned the misuse of scripture. At the same time he began to have some reservations about the way Mark Driscoll handled certain scriptures.

His present attitude towards Mars Hill can be summed in this quote, "I have friends and some family at Mars Hill who I love a great deal and there are things I find admirable at Mars Hill but at length I came to disagree with them on more points than I agreed and had to find a new church home."

And concerning the debate over that which is Mars Hill and Mark Driscoll, he has this to say:

"I have found over the years that both the defenders and detractors of Mars Hill generally and Mark Driscoll in particular have too often lacked a true scholarly approach. Generally people come to the subject of Mars Hill and Driscoll with their minds made up in ways that prevent them from examining his teaching in a substantive way. Nowhere has this been more apparent to me than in how Driscoll has handled Song of Songs and how his self-appointed blogging allies and adversaries have discussed it. At my own blog, Wenatchee The Hatchet, I have attempted to include observations and criticisms of Driscoll that are predicated neither on unquestioning loyalty nor a reflexive dislike but on, when possible, a serious examination of the actual content and application of what Driscoll says and does."

For those that haven't noticed yet, WTH's blog has been added to my roll, the third male to have ever receive this honor.

Also, a confession. I have a "reflexive dislike" of Driscoll. I cannot help it. Not with what he has done to SOS. However, I know the best arguments are the ones based on serious examination like the one WTH has sent me. It is thorough and well-thought out and most needed in this debate.

I will be posting it in four posts:

I WTH's Intro and Part One
II WTH's Parts Two and Three.
III WTH's Part Four A
IV WTH's Part Four B

I'm doing it this way so that I can keep the entire content together yet in digestible sections that are easily referred back to.