John MacArthur's Unfriendly Fire

Yup, it's a firestorm. Yup, it's getting pretty ugly.

Nope, I don't want to get too involved except to say a thing or two and leave a couple links.

First off, those who have been with me, like, forever, know that back in the day when Driscoll was ranting and raving and raping The Song of Songs mostly unchallenged, I appreciated MacArthur's voice in the wilderness, calling Driscoll on his misused and abuse of Scripture.

I still appreciate what he has done.

But now, John MacArthur is ranting and raving and shooting off his mouth and pen with his book and conference called Strange Fire attacking Charismatics.

And apparently Driscoll crashed MacArthur's party.

My biggest impulse is to back up and let the elephants trample each other while I figure out how to serve God to the best of my ability in my small corner of the world far and away from these mad men. And I think that is just what I'll do.

But first I'll link a few things here of those taking on MacArthur's unchristian, unfriendly fire.

Wenatchee the Hatchet has a lot to say about some of this stuff (this is just a link to his blog, not any one post because he has several today).

Wade Burleson does a wonderful job addressing this in his usual level headed manner.

And Wartburg Watch, as always, will keep us updated.

So, for those of you who care to pursue this, I've linked these to get you started.

Oh that God would deliver us from the curse of celebrity pastors.

(Edited November 22, 2013 to add a link from WTH concerning the Open Letter to Mark Driscoll I mentioned in the comments below.)

Logical Fallacies

When I have time, I debate things with others on the internet.

I've learned a lot on how to do it and how not to do it.
I still have a lot to learn.

But one thing I've found out...

There are a lot of people who don't know how to argue/debate without logical fallacies.

So I've linked a list of them I found on imgur (I go there to laugh at funny cat pictures and videos.).

Your logical fallacy is...

Grudem Recants (almost) Everything He Has Ever Said About Women

Just wanted to pass this along for those who know anything about Wayne Grudem.

Grudem Recants...

Plagiarism or Not... THIS!

Wenatchee the Hatchet left a comment under one of my previous Mars Hill plagiarism posts.

Since it had been a while since I put up those posts, people interested n the topic might miss his comment and I don't want them to.

Wenatchee the Hatchet:
What I find troublesome about Grace Driscoll's appropriation of Dan Allender's terms and concepts is not simply that she never gives him any credit, it's that during 2011 when the Driscoll book was in its run-up for promotional touring Mars Hill Graduate School changed its name to remove "Mars Hill". 2011 was also the same year that cease and desist letter got sent out. It cumulatively raises the question of whether or not Mars Hill leadership isn't a bit more cavalier about the intellectual property of other people than it wishes to be about its own content. I find the Mars Hill double standard about the sadness of others copying Mars Hill material while not acknowledging Grace Driscoll's clearly testified debt to the work of Dan Allender puzzling. All it would have taken was a single footnote or endnote, after all.


There doesn't just seem to be a double standard. There clearly is a double standard. If the Driscoll's want to freely borrow from others, then they shouldn't be so ugly towards others who appear to may have borrowed from them.

Plagerism. Too Strong of a Word?

Apparantly it was in comparing Grace Driscoll's writing to someone else's writing.

My friends over at Equality Central Alliance reeled me in.

Here was our conversation.

Good News/Bad News

Real Plagiarism in "Real Marriage"?

Speaking of "Real Porn" er... I mean "Real Marriage"...

It appears that portions of what Grace wrote were actually from another book that is not given credit.

The portions under question have nothing to do with the porn in other sections but is actual helpful info for the wounded soul. At least they were helpful to Grace.

Because those portions are helpful and because I'm so concerned about the wounded heart, part of me is glad to see evidence of her receiving healing some how from somewhere.

But, as WTH points out, plagiarism it plagiarism and I'm disappointed that the actual helpful parts of this book fall under this category.

Real Marriage Chapter 7, Part 2: Comparing Grace Driscoll's writing to Don Adler's writing from the Wounded Heart

Looks like Don Adler's "Wounded Heart" might be a good read. Like I said, I have a great concern for the inner healing of all the members of the Body of Christ.

What Is Traumatizing a Generation?

I'm sure many of you have seen this around.

I have seen it linked, but it was in places I couldn't link to until now.

So since EE has done the hard work, I'll just link to her post.

Oh, yeah.
What is traumatizing a generation?
Porn, my friend.
As bad as it is in the church with pushers like Mark Driscoll around (co-author of Real Porn  er... I mean Real Marriage), it truly is worse in other places.

Pornography Is Sexually Traumatizing an Entire Generation

Good Post on Jezebel Spirit

Wordgazer's Words has a very good post on the frightening rise of a false teaching concerning Jezebel. The teaching is nothing short of modern day witch hunts minus the literal burning (though the spiritual, emotional, and psychological burning are very much present).

The "Jezebel Spirit" Teaching

Church beware of this slippery slope.

Warrior Women of the Old Testament

I was aware of these women but always lost them in the Old Testament. These are two more besides the Judge Deborah.

So I link a comment here that talks about them and says where they are located in the Bible. It's an old comment thread. This comment was made last June. But I don't want to lose these women again. Their existence really kick the feet out from under so much patriarchy and complementarianism.

Marg's comment about Serah and Sheerah

Edited to add:
Oops, my bad.
It's Dawn's comment TO Marg about these women.
Later in the thread, Marg links a blog post that she wrote about these two plus another noteworthy woman.
Sorry for any confusions.

Vacation

Actually it's a very long road trip to go see my 97 year old grandmother whom I haven't seen in over three years.

So I will be off-line for a week or two.

If you leave a comment on an old post, I will approve it as soon as I can if I can ever get on-line while I'm on the road. If not, It will have to wait until I get back. I don't have a fancy, schmancy android or smart phone or any kind of internet on my bare bones cell phone.

See you all on the other side (of my road trip).

:)

Respect and Abuse

Are you getting tired of this topic yet?

Sorry, I've kind of wanted to address it for some time. It took a trigger to open the flood gates. And that trigger was Wendy's post. Sorry Wendy. It was nothing personal.

I want to address something she said. Don't worry. It's not pick on Wendy day here at ye ol' bitter to sweet. Just in case anyone missed this before. I have great respect for Wendy and her views. She's a gracious blogger who does a great job dealing with difficult issues rather than sidestepping them.

We do disagree on in a few areas. But the disagreement is not huge and if we lived closer and had time, I'd fellowship with her in a heartbeat, picking her brain concerning other topics.

Wendy gave a gracious answer to commentor, David, who misunderstood some of the other comments from concerned women. I'm glad David commented on her blog rather than mine and Wendy handled it well.

But I'd like to explore one thing that she said to him. She said:

"(#1)  I think that abuse and respect are totally different paradigms. (#2) I don't believe that respect as God speaks of it contributes to abuse. (#3) But I do believe abuse happens and wives need to know when enough is enough and they need to remove themselves from a situation. (#4) That's a topic that I've dealt with in other posts."

I've divided it into four sentences and wish do address three of them.

Sentence # 2 first. I absolutely agree with this sentence on both theological and theoretical levels. When God speaks of respect, it transcends all the muck and mire of the human condition and it does not abuse. It liberates and heals.

Sentence # 3 next. I also agree with this theologically and theoretically. God never calls us to submit to abuse, no matter how you look at the Bible, whether your conclusions fall on the Complementarian or Egalitarian side. Wives need to know when enough is enough and to get the heck out of Dodge when things get dicey.

It is really only Sentence #1 that I have a bit of trouble with. Yes, when dealing with perfectly formed people, not tainted by sin, poor cultural expectations, generational things etc, these two things can be separated when the non-tainted person encounters abuse.

I learned the term "Pervasive Depravity" from Wendy who was exploring the Calvinist TULIP doctrine. She and I both have trouble with the term "Total Depravity". All I can think of is serial killers and pedophiles when you bring up Total Depravity. But Pervasive Depravity? I'm on board with that. I don't have trouble seeing how 'The Fall" has tainted every area of our existences. It has touched and harmed everything including and especially our relationships as illustrated in Genesis.

So to me, Respect and Abuse being totally different paradigms is only possible if the position that is to be respected is completely untouched by pervasively depraved human hands. More specifically, as long as we are the ones doing the respecting and not expecting respect (as in leadership or elevated position of authority) then that attitude of respect can be separated out from abuse somehow. But the minute it is the human who is supposed to be respected...  Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed that he does not fall. I Corinthian 10:12


I'm not saying that we are not to have leaders or positions of esteem. I'm not even saying that men can't be leaders in their own homes. It's that those in positions of esteem should have the right attitude, not expecting respect beyond human dignity respect. It's more than all right for them to have self-respect and not accept abuse against them as normal. But leaders should take care about how much respect they think they should have. Husbands who believe that they are the head of their household should have this attitude love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her. (Taken from Ephesians 5:25)
He needs the attitude of giving himself up, not the attitude of, "I am the boss of you therefore respect me as such."

What books like "Love and Respect" teach men to do is to expect respect from the little woman, a respect beyond human decency respect and beyond that preferring him over other men respect that comes with marriage. It teaches men to think more highly of themselves than they ought (Romans 12:3). It teaches them to think that they should get better, more important respect than their wives and teaches them that if the little women doesn't give him the respect that is his due (often defined by the depravity of his own mind rather than by anything taught by Jesus or Paul), she is not meeting his need for respect and then judged and condemned for her 'sin'.

Again we all need respect. In marriages, besides basic human dignity respect there is a special respect due to our spouses that prefers our own spouse over all others because we have become one flesh. But leadership respect?

I put forth that for true healthy relationships, even in a Complementarian one, that the husband should not expect extra special respect beyond human dignity and spouse related things. I feel that it is far more healthy for the relationship, overall. The wife is certainly free to give the husband leadership respect if that's how they believe. But he should take care that he doesn't let it go to his head and he uses it wisely. The minute he expects it, feels entitled to it, craves it... abuse is not far behind and in fact perhaps already mixed in. In this case I believe that respect and abuse are not totally different paradigms because of pervasive depravity. It is touched by our fallen selves. You simply cannot separate it out.

I actually have a couple more things to say to back this up but I believe that I'll put them in a separate post since this has gotten long.

Love & Respect: Biblical? Freebie

Found a link.
Actually it was left on Wendy's blog.
But I feel the need to pass it on at no extra cost to you all.

Love & Respect: Biblical?

This is a thorough review.
Click on it when you have time.
If you don't have much time, you could still click on it and just read the comments.