Final Word on Josh Butler's Beautiful Union Debacle

 Well, actually, there will never be a final word because Josh Butler is doubling down and determined to FORCE people to accept and understand his idiocracy.

But, I have really enjoyed the Substack series by Laura Robinson on the matter. Here is the latest from her series, words after her brilliant conclusion:

What If It's Just Bad? Beautiful Union Part Forever, It Will Never Stop

This is something I will probably refer back to because Reformer men don't understand what they have done to themselves and the church by sidelining women, insulting them, and never being willing to hear their voices if their voices are not fawning over how brilliant Reformer men are.

The ESV Is Not a Good Translation

 I've said it here before. I'll say it again. The ESV translation of the Bible is dishonest and it has an agenda that opposes the work of God.

It was made to support Complementarianism and Patriarchy. It was made to take away power from women in the Church and give it to men alone.

Here is a YouTube video going into it further:

3 Problems with the ESV

Edited to add:

Why I'm Not Using the ESV Anymore (The Good, The Sketchy, and the Gnarly)

Pearls Before Swine

 The author of this bit below posted it on Facebook and said to feel free to share. I'm not sure this is what she means. But I'm going to share it here for now and give her the proper credit. If she asks me to take it down, I will. Sharing because I so relate. Sharing because I feel that this is similar to my "The Parable of the Talents Revisited" post from earlier this month. (The link on her name goes to her Facebook page.)

*****

"Clutching Her Pearls: The painful preservation of God's good gifts" by Rebecca Congleton

“Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces.” Matthew 7:6

Torn to pieces. It may sound marginally melodramatic, but that metaphor, used by Jesus to illustrate the immense cost of offering what is most valuable to those who are unable to appreciate its importance, so poignantly describes the deep and dangerous wound, too often left in the hearts of Christian women. Those who passionately and courageously pursue a calling or openly pour out their gifts in a culture or environment where those callings and gifts are perceived as either less-than the ones proffered by men, or inappropriately sought by a woman, are very likely to have their souls trampled and their worth torn apart.

I was 28 years old, when I found myself co-leading worship with my new husband at a storefront church of fewer than 30 people in a small Indiana town. Joe was (and is) my second husband. My first marriage had ended after years of physical and sexual abuse, which culminated in my ex-husband’s arrest for stalking, voyeurism, and residential entry; crimes which were carried out against our young neighbor. It was only after his arrest that I felt the freedom to file for divorce. Though I had disclosed many incidents of abuse to my former pastor and his wife, I had always been encouraged to stay, pray, and submit.

A year later, having been liberated from constant peril and violence, rebuilding my life, recovering from trauma, safe and so very happy in my union with Joe, and leading worship in a new fellowship, I felt the healing winds of the unwavering love of Christ blowing powerfully through my heart, disturbing the well-anchored roots of shame and fear.

I felt like Mary, pouring out her priceless bottle of perfume. I had held onto my gift, my voice, my song, for so many years, knowing Christ had placed it in me for the purpose of worship, but always questioning how I could ever stand on a platform and fearlessly lift my voice, when I felt worthless, when my own husband could not love or care for me?

On the other side of that dark season, I finally felt free. I finally felt whole. It was time to step into my calling. The pastor who planted our brand new church, which was affiliated with a well-known global association of churches, recognized that calling and wanted to nurture it, and nurture it he did, until a devastating cancer diagnosis forced him to suddenly step aside. A week later, we welcomed a new pastor, and soon thereafter, I was informed, following a meeting between the new pastor and my husband—which I wasn’t invited to attend—I would no longer be on the worship team.

The reason provided to me for this change in leadership was vague and not related to my gender, but I knew immediately that was the heart of it, and I felt utterly destroyed, “torn apart”. I wept. I wept harder than the first time my ex-husband had sexually assaulted me. I wept from a different place. I wept from the very center of my being, the place where my devotion, my intimacy with Christ lives and grows. I wept as I felt those roots of shame and worthlessness begin to form once again. I had poured out my perfume. I had brought my precious pearls, so painstakingly guarded and treasured during years of abuse, and they had been carelessly rejected. There is no pain like the pain of having your purpose trampled underfoot.

Joe’s heart was broken too. He declined our pastor’s proposal that he continue to lead without me beside him. Holding me in his arms, as I cried, he said “How could I? How could I possibly do that, knowing you are hurting like this?”

For months we faithfully continued to attend services at our church. Most Sundays I cried through the entire worship set, now led by two brothers, ages 15 and 16. I lifted my hands in surrender and refused to allow the agony of this loss to create distance between my heart and God’s. I wasn’t just broken, I was angry. I was confused. I wasn’t even invited into a conversation about why I had been “sat down”. I would silently pray the same prayer over and over again. “Why can’t I be used the way I know you want to use me? I don’t understand. Just help me understand.”

I wish my experience was the exception and not the rule, but my heart has been grieved over and over, as I’ve heard and observed similarly painful experiences by women who want nothing more than to live out their callings in honor of Christ.

A friend in South Carolina wrote to me, recently, on social media, describing how she was treated as a young woman in bible college. When she was just a freshman, a professor accosted her in front of his entire department for closing his office door behind her, when she met with him to discuss a paper, treating her as though her very presence in his office was an indiscretion, because she was female. She was also denied the opportunity to pursue Pastoral Studies and wasn’t provided with a mentor to answer her theological questions, because all the mentors were men. Now, years later, having been subjected to bullying by a male pastor at a church where she was a counselor, she is not currently in active ministry. This intelligent, kind, creative, God-loving individual with so much to offer the Body of Christ works in a secular field and is thriving, but how might her story have been different if the men who claimed to follow Christ had treated her as an equal?

My husband and I spent a few years traveling as full-time music missionaries, and we eventually relocated. Now, living in the deep south, hardly a week goes by when I don’t witness the oppression of women within the faith community. Male headship and authority are so deeply ingrained here, to openly think differently is to welcome disdain, admonishment, and even severe correction. Still, I know it is not the heart of Christ. When Mary brought her perfumed oil and knelt at his feet, he honored her. He recognized not only the value of what she poured out, but her worth as an image bearer of God. While the religious elite stood by in shock and judgment, insisting her most valuable asset was not being utilized appropriately, Jesus allowed her to use her hair, one of the most culturally significant features of her womanhood, to wipe her tears from his feet. Can you imagine anything more intimate and easily misunderstood? Yet he did not push her away or rebuke her. Her gender, her femininity was not a threat to him. Her motives were not questioned by him, because she was female. He valued her gift, because he knew what it cost her, and be assured the cost was much higher than simply the price of the oil.

It has taken me until the age of 41 to fully understand the harm done by complementarian theology, not just to the women whose giftings are rejected, but to the whole of the Body of Christ, when fifty percent of us are relegated to smiling, cake-baking, baby-birthing, “helpers” and nothing more.

Joe and I received a late night knock on our front door from that Indiana pastor, several months after I was dismissed from leadership, a knock which was followed by a sincere apology and a reinstatement—after he had discussed whether women should be permitted to lead worship with the California-based founder of our fellowship of churches, who affirmed it was an acceptable role for women—but the damage had been done. We stepped back into our position, leading a gathering of roughly thirty people in worship, every Sunday, for the next couple years, but never with the same confidence, never with the same blissful feeling of being right where we belonged. I was once again “clutching my pearls”, aware I was not in a safe place to fully walk in the calling placed on my life.

I’m so thankful to say, after a long journey serving and struggling within complementarian churches, Joe and I are now part of the worship team at a thriving egalitarian church, where we live in Augusta, GA. One of the first things the Worship Pastor said specifically to me, after our audition, was “Rebecca, I see leadership in you,” and those six words may have been the most healing words a Pastor has ever spoken to me.

Clutch your pearls, if you must. Stash your expensive oil away from the eyes of earthly-minded men, but seek out Jesus. Look for him where he may be found, and there at his feet you will discover a safe place to pour out the most valuable substance you possess, the very life and breath he has given you. It is never a waste to offer them there, and you can trust that he will never chastise you or turn you away. He will never trample your beautiful soul beneath his beautiful feet.

*****

Thank you, Rebecca, for putting so eloquently what many of us feel.

Two Links for Today

 First, Keith Gregoire defending his wife, Sheila, again. Because Sheila doesn't hold up male supremacy as God's divine order 'clearly' laid out in the Bible, she is being accused of not being 'biblical'.

Being Biblical Means Loving the Whole Bible, Not Just Pet Verses.

You go, Keith. I always love it when you contribute to Sheila's blog. This time you were able to logically expose the hypocrisy of those accusing Sheila.

And this from Baptist Global New:

Why Women Talking has women talking and complementarian men fuming

Apparently, male headship is way more important than women talking and working together to deliver themselves from abuse and injustice. At least one dude from The Gospel Coalition thought this so strongly he felt the need to write about it.

Edited 2/18/23 to add this link:

An Ex-Bible Counselor Responds to Christianity Today

It's another good Read.

Edited 2/22/23 to add this one.

Mark Driscoll's Demand for Loyalty Divides Daughter-in-Laws Family

Just wanted to be able to find this one later.

Money, Power, and Sex

I heard a famous old time preacher back in the day say that it was Gold. Glory, or Girls (or any combination) that makes Pastors, Evangelists, and other Christian leaders fall. This preacher died in 1996. If only he could see things now he would be completely heart-broken over all the corruption in the denominations and mega churches today. More on this after a bit.

My guilty pleasure the last few months is watching "Escaping Polygamy" on YouTube. And the series is exactly what is says it is. It is a reality show starring young ladies who have escaped the Kingston Clan in the Salt Lake Valley who are helping others from that Clan and the FLDS who want to escape.

In the opening credits, one of the girls says, "They think it's about religion but it's not. It's about sex." Also in the credits it is noted that the Kingston Clan, or the Order, rules by fear and intimidation. In one of the episodes I watched recently, it was noted that the Order loves money way more than its own people. Sounding a little bit like Girls, Gold, Glory?

Back in 2011, I used to compare Warren Jeffs, the prophet of the FLDS, with John Piper. Warren Jeffs was all about "Keeping Sweet". That is the way he wants his people to behave, especially his women. They are not allowed their own emotions. In comparison John Piper is concerned with how women respond to men, even in the face of abuse. Their response must be sweet and submissive.

As I work my way through the "Escaping Polygamy" series, I am again reminded of how the FLDS and the Kingston Clan have taken the Money, Power, and Sex religion to dizzying levels.

But the Catholic Church, The Southern Baptist Church, and scores of Mega Church pastors have also been worshiping at the Money, Power, Sex Altar. They are sliding down the same slippery slope that the FLDS and Kingstons are on. It is no longer about Jesus and healing the broken hearted. It's about building the kingdoms of men on the sand of greed and narcissism.

Some years back I wrote a series entitled Sex, Drugs, and Mark Driscoll [Part 1, Part 2, Part 3, Part 4], and I discussed how Driscoll's Rock Star Preacher status helped him to get away with stuff your average guy cannot. I'm adding today that Driscoll's Rock Star Preacher status helped him to get away with things the average Narcissist couldn't get away with. This is bad for both the church and the Narcissist.

So, yes, that old time pastor from back in the day, who was concerned about Gold, Glory, and Girls taking preachers down would be shocked to see that nowadays Money, Power, and Sex are all just in a days work for many of these Rock Star/Celebrity Preachers.

Now I'm going to state the obvious.

This needs to stop.

Thoughts from Byrd Concerning Listening

 Was lurking over at The Wartburg Watch and found a tweet leading to Aimee Byrd's December 4th post on Why Complementarians Can't Listen.

It's a good read. It makes reference to the grain of wheat that has to die and be buried in order to produce fruit and that Complementarianism won't allow that because Men are the boss and don't have to die to their arrogance and sense of superiority. So this makes listening to their subordinate women unnecessary or impossible.

The Bible is full of such parables and references pointing out that hierarchy between believers is not to be part of the Kingdom of God.

One of my favorite ones is concerning the rich being like camel going through the eye of a needle. This is, of course, in reference to a gate in the city wall called the needle. A man could walk through it, from what I'm told. But a camel would have to have all it's packs taken off its back and have to crawl on it's knees to get through.

Most understand this as a rich man can't take his riches in to heaven, which is true. But I wonder how many understand that this also includes entitled men who think they should be the boss of others. You can't take your entitlement and desire to be the boss into the Kingdom of Heaven.

Sure, men have made many religious structures where they get to be the boss of others and stamp "God approves of this message/dynamic" on it and call it gospel. But they really aren't representing the Kingdom of God. Nor are they truly being leaders in God's Kingdom. They are just playing at the game of "who gets to be the boss of whom" and thinking they are doing church right, when it is so wrong. Jesus said that it was not to be like this among His followers. He said that this is what the gentiles seek after.

So, I agree with Aimee. Complementarians can't listen to women. Because their very structure props up false hierarchies and gives entitled men free reign to abuse and lord over God's sheep.

Narcissism and Spiritual Bypassing

 One of my favorite Youtubers that discuss Narcissism is Dr. Ramani. I don't see every video she puts up, but I've shared several of them here and with friends struggling with narcistic abuse.

Well, Dr Ramani put out a video today entitled "Narcissists and Spiritual Bypassing". I have never heard this term, but apparently it was coined in the 70s by John Welwood.

Though she speaks of this in terms of the latest self-help and health crazes, I find it very applicable to many things in Christianity.

The biggest being, of course, the sweeping under the rug of women being abused in patriarchy and complementarian circles. People, both men and women, spiritually bypass the pain of women being abused, telling them that they should just pray harder or submit more, blaming the victim and holding the victim responsible for the toxic behavior of their abuser.

I like this term "Spiritual Bypassing" and I wish that I had the term back when I was trying to figure out and talk about New Calvinism and how it seemed similar to Vulcanism (yes, Spock, Star Trek Vulcanism). So watch out world, Mara Reid is going to be using this term liberally in the future when discussing those who are just too spiritual to give a crap for those suffering in the church.

Well Played, Cosper

 Episode 8 of The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill podcast finally dropped on Friday. Demon Hunting looked into the weird world of Mark Driscoll's Narcissistic Personality Disorder brand of deliverance ministry.

As a side note, Cosper announced in this episode that these Podcasts will begin to come out every two weeks rather than every week. One reason given was that people who initially didn't want to be interviewed for this have been changing their minds, so they are coming forward and wanting their voices to be included in this massive undertaking.

Over all, I suppose that this is good. However, I see this as a potentially detrimental turn in one area.

Apparently there are those who are mad at Cosper for giving feminists and egalitarians too much voice in the fifth episode of the podcast. You know that podcast that I mentioned in my Mars Hill and Consumerism (NPD) post called The Things We Do to Women.

In "The Things We Do to Women" Cosper includes the voices of feminists and actually went as far as addressing the Rape Culture at Mars Hill. He didn't hit it hard. In fact, there are many of us who felt he let Driscoll and Mars Hill off easy rather than giving this issue the full attention that it deserves.

But as is common among Evangelical men, there was an outcry and one star reviews about Cosper giving voice to those filthy feminists. (gasp!!! entities far worse than pedophile pastors and repeat sex offenders that riddle the SBC.)

So in this episode, Episode Eight, Demon Hunting, Cosper again addresses the blatant misogyny of Driscoll and the Mars Hill community. But this time, he brings a Complementarian in to point it out so that the screeching Patriarchy couldn't just poo poo what was being said. The Comp dude was concerned with and opposed to the woman-demeaning culture that Mark had created, including the misogyny perpetuated in his teachings on deliverance.

This can be both good and bad. I do feel that Cosper did well to bring in that pro-woman Complementarian voice. This is why the title of this post includes "well played" in it. However, now I am worried that the egalitarian voice and the voices of trauma informed counselors might be set aside for the rest of the podcast series.

Make no mistake, what Mark taught men and women about sex and the purpose of women was spiritual and sexual abuse. And his warped teachings did, in fact, lead to a rape culture. Women were traumatized. And while it was going on, Evangelical men did not care. This fact should not be minimized or glossed over. And I hope Cosper keeps this in mind and doesn't just throw women under the "keep the peace with the patriarchy" bus.

Grudem a Heretic?

Hey, I'm not the one who asked first.

This was in 'Christianity Today' for Pete's sake.

Complementarianism and the Trinity: Is Wayne Grudem a Dangerous Heretic?

They even add the word 'Dangerous' which I didn't include in my title.

Am I smiling over here?
You bet I am.
I am sick to death of entitled, little men in their holier-than-thou towers using God and the Bible as bashing tools to amass power and authority unto themselves.
It is long past time that they be called out by bigger and more far-reaching publications.

Thanks to The Wartburg Watch for the heads up on this article.

Dissecting "Love and Respect"

Here is the beginning of a thorough review of the book "Love and Respect".

This review is needed to stand against the off-balanced teaching of the book. It is something I have neither the time nor the patience to do so I'm glad there is someone out there who does.

Love, Respect, and Proof-Texts by Nate Sparks

Thanks, Nate, for taking on this beast.

CBMW Folks Have Lost Their Minds

It's official.
The aberrant doctrines fueling the Council on Biblical Manhood and Womanhood have finally taken their toll on the thinkers in this movement. They have boarded the crazy train and are trying to outdo one another with testosterone tweets.
Julie Anne over at Spiritual Sounding Board is following this:

Council on Biblical Manhood and Womanhood 2016 Live Conference #CBMW16 Live Tweets Complementarianism Cool-Aid.

I don't know what it is going to take to get these folks to face the reality of their own insanity.

"The SBC Is Pimping Out Lottie Moon"

Not my words but a quote from and angry female member of the Southern Baptist Conventions, Monica Dennington.

She's angry that the Southern Baptist Convention is, in fact, pimping out Lottie Moon.

Here is a link to her blog/vlog article:

"Are You Funding Terroism? The Lottie Moon Christmas Offering"

I really like her title. And I also like her boldness in stating the sorry truth about the SBC pimping out Lottie.

So when you put the two together, the terrorism and the pimping, what you actually have is female trafficking of a distinguished saint.

Tell it like it is, Monica. Expose the evil of the men in charge of the Southern Baptist Convention, and their greedy, oppressive little hearts.

Scapegoating and the Modern Molech

"Molech was an Ammonite deity who represented masculinity and the part that man played in reproduction to bring about life."

So says Cynthia Kunsman in her very good article about the worship of Masculinity in the Duggar version of Christianity.


Will Anna Duggar be offered as the next living sacrifice to save the Duggar family Brand? Scapegoating, Spread your Legs Theology, and the Modern Molech

Cynthia has done a good job of pointing out how far people will go to prop up their false version of the Gospel.

The Problem with the ESV

Actually there is a problem with Sovereign Grace Ministries (SGM). And I found an article called Unpacking the Web of the Sovereign Grace Ministries Scandal. It looks like a pretty good, if rather involve, article.

But skimming, I found these comparisons between the ESV (English Standard Version) and the NIV (New International Version). Well, just let me quote the author of the article.

"Keller, Carson, Dever and Mohler (as well as other leaders I’ve listed above) are readily published through Crossway books. These men have been influential in popularizing the ESV Bible (English Standard Version) to usurp the popular NIV to become THE evangelical translation of choice.

But, it’s just a translation! you might say.

The best way I know to show the problem of ESV is to compare two passages that reveals a masculine bias NOT in the Hebrew, but present in the ESV (bold mine).

So God created mankind in his own image,
    in the image of God he created them;
    male and female he created them. (NIV)

So God created man in his own image,
    in the image of God he created him;
    male and female he created them.(ESV)

Do you see the key difference? Consider how the subtle word “man” without “kind” sounds in the ears of modern men and women today.

The Gospel Coalition is also the loudest “evangelical” voice advocating for men’s spiritual priority over women, softly called “complementarianism” (Christians for Biblical Manhood and Womanhood is housed by STBS, Mohler’s school). See both the ESV bias and Crossway publications pointing in the complementarian direction.

Here’s how the ESV makes females universally silent in the church (bold mine, 1 Cor 14:33-34):

33) For God is not a God of disorder but of peace—as in all the congregations of the Lord’s people.
34) Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says. (NIV)

33) For God is not a God of confusion but of peace.
34) As in all the churches of the saints, the women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law also says. (ESV)

Notice how the NIV (and KJV) make orderliness the universal call.  The ESV sneaks that phrase over to verse 34 (I underlined it) to make women’s silence, not peace, the universal. Then, note the reemphasizing by capitalizing the word “Law.” (There is no such Law in Torah and scholars believe it was a cultural law in view… hence the lowercase.)

Having studied complementarianism extensively, the push for ESV appears to be a sly manipulation of Scripture to fit a powerful organization’s agenda. The Hebrew and Greek allow room for the way the NIV interprets these passages.

It saddens me that men will manipulate scripture like this in order to promote their agenda, one that includes oppressing women.

Jeremiah 8:8 says, "How can you say, ‘We are wise, And the law of the Lord is with us’? But behold, the lying pen of the scribes Has made it into a lie."

 It was true back in Jeremiah's day. Now we see that it is also true today.

The Problem with Power

Kristen nails it in her post concerning promoting hierarchy in marriage in her post:

Male Headship and the Problem with Power.

Divine Right of Kings in English Translations.

And I'm not just talking about the Kings of old. I'm also talking about the destructive force trying to make men into the prophets, priests, and kings of their homes over their lowly subjected wives.

Here is an excellent comment from Arce at TWW concerning study of the Greek NT and comparing it to the English translations that we have today. He claims that a "great deal of what we have in the English NT that is the result of the terrible patriarchy and divine right influences on the KJV translators that carries over into almost all English translations today."

Here is a link to his comment:
Arce speaks on English translations

And here is his comment in full that I don't want people to miss. It is in response to someone who is just sure the Bible give him the divine right to be the boss over his subjected wife.

And again: The English translation of the Ephesians passages has added words not there in the Greek, selectively. In particular, the word translated “submit” (not exactly the best translation of the Greek word, as it means something different in our culture) and the word “love” both get inserted in places where they do not appear in the Greek, selectively. Both words should appear in application to the husband or wife if we are inserting, b/c of parallelism. OR neither word should appear.

The verse that precedes about all submitting to all is the key. And then the submission of a wife is qualified — to her own husband, not to all the other men in the church.

And Gene, I have a Ph.D., a J.D., and a 800 plus volume of theological books, with multiple commentaries of each of the NT books and most of the OT books, in my home. I have been an evangelical Christian for more than 55 years, and a Baptist for most of those. As a teenager, I attended the adult bible studies my church held on week nights at least two months a year. I have taught adult classes in church, have served on the diaconate in several churches, and as chairman of major committees such as personnel and finance.

In addition, I chaired an extensive study of ALL of the verses that anyone raised as potentially relevant to the role of women in the church, including all of those verses that relate to the marital relathionship. We explored all of the verses in Hebrew or Greek as appropriate, in context, and reviewed the work of various Hebrew and Greek scholars.

And I can tell you that, there is a great deal of what we have in the English NT that is the result of the terrible patriarchy and divine right influences on the KJV translators that carries over into almost all English translations today. It relates to all of the issues around the words “head”, “submit”, etc. And you can choose to disagree with me if you wish. But the teaching of comp and the teaching of patriarchy in the church is not supported by the Greek NT, and it is contributing to the shrinking of the church as women, who have kept the faith alive in many places, are leaving the organized church that teaches what becomes the excuse for abuse and denying the equality of all before God.

Warrior Women of the Old Testament

I was aware of these women but always lost them in the Old Testament. These are two more besides the Judge Deborah.

So I link a comment here that talks about them and says where they are located in the Bible. It's an old comment thread. This comment was made last June. But I don't want to lose these women again. Their existence really kick the feet out from under so much patriarchy and complementarianism.

Marg's comment about Serah and Sheerah

Edited to add:
Oops, my bad.
It's Dawn's comment TO Marg about these women.
Later in the thread, Marg links a blog post that she wrote about these two plus another noteworthy woman.
Sorry for any confusions.

Respect and Abuse

Are you getting tired of this topic yet?

Sorry, I've kind of wanted to address it for some time. It took a trigger to open the flood gates. And that trigger was Wendy's post. Sorry Wendy. It was nothing personal.

I want to address something she said. Don't worry. It's not pick on Wendy day here at ye ol' bitter to sweet. Just in case anyone missed this before. I have great respect for Wendy and her views. She's a gracious blogger who does a great job dealing with difficult issues rather than sidestepping them.

We do disagree on in a few areas. But the disagreement is not huge and if we lived closer and had time, I'd fellowship with her in a heartbeat, picking her brain concerning other topics.

Wendy gave a gracious answer to commentor, David, who misunderstood some of the other comments from concerned women. I'm glad David commented on her blog rather than mine and Wendy handled it well.

But I'd like to explore one thing that she said to him. She said:

"(#1)  I think that abuse and respect are totally different paradigms. (#2) I don't believe that respect as God speaks of it contributes to abuse. (#3) But I do believe abuse happens and wives need to know when enough is enough and they need to remove themselves from a situation. (#4) That's a topic that I've dealt with in other posts."

I've divided it into four sentences and wish do address three of them.

Sentence # 2 first. I absolutely agree with this sentence on both theological and theoretical levels. When God speaks of respect, it transcends all the muck and mire of the human condition and it does not abuse. It liberates and heals.

Sentence # 3 next. I also agree with this theologically and theoretically. God never calls us to submit to abuse, no matter how you look at the Bible, whether your conclusions fall on the Complementarian or Egalitarian side. Wives need to know when enough is enough and to get the heck out of Dodge when things get dicey.

It is really only Sentence #1 that I have a bit of trouble with. Yes, when dealing with perfectly formed people, not tainted by sin, poor cultural expectations, generational things etc, these two things can be separated when the non-tainted person encounters abuse.

I learned the term "Pervasive Depravity" from Wendy who was exploring the Calvinist TULIP doctrine. She and I both have trouble with the term "Total Depravity". All I can think of is serial killers and pedophiles when you bring up Total Depravity. But Pervasive Depravity? I'm on board with that. I don't have trouble seeing how 'The Fall" has tainted every area of our existences. It has touched and harmed everything including and especially our relationships as illustrated in Genesis.

So to me, Respect and Abuse being totally different paradigms is only possible if the position that is to be respected is completely untouched by pervasively depraved human hands. More specifically, as long as we are the ones doing the respecting and not expecting respect (as in leadership or elevated position of authority) then that attitude of respect can be separated out from abuse somehow. But the minute it is the human who is supposed to be respected...  Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed that he does not fall. I Corinthian 10:12


I'm not saying that we are not to have leaders or positions of esteem. I'm not even saying that men can't be leaders in their own homes. It's that those in positions of esteem should have the right attitude, not expecting respect beyond human dignity respect. It's more than all right for them to have self-respect and not accept abuse against them as normal. But leaders should take care about how much respect they think they should have. Husbands who believe that they are the head of their household should have this attitude love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her. (Taken from Ephesians 5:25)
He needs the attitude of giving himself up, not the attitude of, "I am the boss of you therefore respect me as such."

What books like "Love and Respect" teach men to do is to expect respect from the little woman, a respect beyond human decency respect and beyond that preferring him over other men respect that comes with marriage. It teaches men to think more highly of themselves than they ought (Romans 12:3). It teaches them to think that they should get better, more important respect than their wives and teaches them that if the little women doesn't give him the respect that is his due (often defined by the depravity of his own mind rather than by anything taught by Jesus or Paul), she is not meeting his need for respect and then judged and condemned for her 'sin'.

Again we all need respect. In marriages, besides basic human dignity respect there is a special respect due to our spouses that prefers our own spouse over all others because we have become one flesh. But leadership respect?

I put forth that for true healthy relationships, even in a Complementarian one, that the husband should not expect extra special respect beyond human dignity and spouse related things. I feel that it is far more healthy for the relationship, overall. The wife is certainly free to give the husband leadership respect if that's how they believe. But he should take care that he doesn't let it go to his head and he uses it wisely. The minute he expects it, feels entitled to it, craves it... abuse is not far behind and in fact perhaps already mixed in. In this case I believe that respect and abuse are not totally different paradigms because of pervasive depravity. It is touched by our fallen selves. You simply cannot separate it out.

I actually have a couple more things to say to back this up but I believe that I'll put them in a separate post since this has gotten long.

Is Respect a 'Foreign' Concept?

Actually, I would have liked the title of this one to be:

"Is Respect Really a 'Foreign' Concept to Christian Wives? I Think Not."

But that was rather long.

Yeah, I know. It looks like "Pick on David" month over at ye old bitter to sweet blog. I don't mean to pick on him. I'm just kind of incredulous as to some of the things he said over on Wendy's blog the other day.

I actually have sympathy for David. I totally get that his wife was disrespectful from the things he says. I don't like seeing wives being disrespectful to their husbands. I don't like eye rolling and argumentativeness in women and when they engage in it toward their husbands in it makes the wives look bad, if their husbands aren't being unreasonable. If the husbands are being unreasonable, then the wife doesn't look so bad, but I still don't like the way it looks. She could get so much further with him if she used a bit of graciousness.

But some of the things David says makes me realize that he is unaware of what is going on in some/many sectors of Christianity.

Here are some quotes from David over at Wendy's.

In his first comment:
" The negative comments here indicate how foreign that concept is to wives. This is not entirely their fault; the church has dropped the ball on this since forever. Until I heard a Focus on the Family interview with Eggerichs after his book came out, I had never heard any pastor or teacher make that point  "

and

"this post, and Eggerichs' book, are spot-on for the overwhelming majority of husbands." [talking about how many husbands are not getting the respect they deserve in their own homes.]

In a follow up comment:
"My point was that Eggerichs' discussion of unconditional respect for husbands is (generally) a foreign concept to Christian wives (and Christian husbands too), while everyone is quite familiar with the concept of unconditional love for wives, even though they are both taught in the same passage. We can quibble about whether the negative comments here are further proof of that disparity, but it doesn't change my point. Introducing the specter of abuse in response to my comment seems misplaced."

It is only misplaced to David because he is clueless of how abusive things have gotten for some women in their Christian circles and their marriages. I understand that David is hurt and hurting over what his wife has done to him. But to decide, from his personal experience and comparing notes with a few guys who don't feel respected, that respect is a 'foreign' concept to all Christian wives and that "the church has dropped the ball on this since forever" if very short-sighted and, okay, let's just come out and say it... it's prejudiced.

Sorry, David, for being so blunt. But I'm only doing it because I don't like it when abused/disrespected men and abused/unloved wives talk past each other and bicker over minor details rather than seeing the big picture and working out real solutions.

So anyway, I have said all of this to set up a link I'm going to give. There is a book out called "Created to be His Helpmeet" (CTBHHM) written by a certain Debi Pearl that has earned the nick name "Created to be His Doormat" and for good reason. Debi goes into great detail on how a woman is supposed to reverence her husband (not respect, but reverence, she's King James only). I'm not going to link her book. You can find it easily since it is such a big seller among Christian wives in evangelical circles (those gals you accuse viewing the concept of respect as 'foreign'). An huge seller.

No, I'm not going to link Debi's book. But I am going to link a post by a girl raised in a Patriarchal home turned atheist who is critiquing Debi's book. Oh, is it slanderous that I'm linking an atheist? Well, I guess anyone can judge me this way if they want to. But they need to understand that this atheist turned atheist, in part, due to the over-emphasis of respect/reverence/worship of the man, the husband, the father in the patriarchal group she came from.

Still judging her for being atheist and me for linking one on my blog? All I can plead is this:

Luke 16:8 And his master praised the unrighteous manager because he had acted shrewdly; for the sons of this age are more shrewd in relation to their own kind than the sons of light.

Libby Anne, the gal I'm linking, can see this abuse for what it is. She lived it. She escaped it. Now she's critiquing it and showing it for what it is, abuse. Wolf attitudes dressed in Sheep's clothing.

 CTBHHM: In Which a Woman Dares to Assert Agency

Some of the angry comments under her post are from others who have seen or experienced this ridiculous over emphasis on respect, er I mean reverence and fear.

The only reason I have linked this is to debunk David's comment concerning respect being a 'foreign' concept among Christian wives. This simply isn't true. There are a lot of people coming out of the patriarchy and heavy complementarian movements. Some are rejecting God and the Bible altogether. Others still want to find answers in God and the Bible. We do those searching for answers a disservice when we give them pat, worn-out, clichéd answers like the book "Love and Respect" and claim that teachings on respect are "foreign".

Patriarchy: a false Gospel

Yes, Patriarchy being promoted as "God's Design" or "God's Intention" is a perverted form of the Gospel and far removed from the actual words of Jesus recorded in the books of the Gospels.

I've said this for a long time. I get tired of saying.

But I don't get tired of seeing others say it. So here is a link to TWW's

Patriarchy and Abuse: Twisted Scriptures